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[–]nerdor257 10 points11 points ago

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You have the wrong mentality. Jazz is about playing over changes. You have to hit good notes over top of each chord. If you want to play jazz then I`d say literally every scale has a use. The first thing to do is learn to play chord tones, then expand that idea to chord-scale relationships.

If you actually mean you just want some fancier stuff to do over your standard blues backing track or whatever then you can look into the diminished scale (great to use as a transition between the 1 and 4 chord) as well as bebop scales. You could start looking into altering your pentatonic scales (I`ve just become a fan of replacing the minor 7 in the minor pentatonic with a major 6, for example). Sideslipping is also an option.

[–]depnot 7 points8 points ago

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You have the wrong mentality. Jazz is about playing over changes. You have to hit good notes over top of each chord. If you want to play jazz then I`d say literally every scale has a use. The first thing to do is learn to play chord tones, then expand that idea to chord-scale relationships.

100x this. I am a crap jazz player so I welcome any corrections and tips myself, but the biggest "aha" moment I had with jazz was realizing that it's not strictly bound to specific keys or scales in the sense that you might get from learning basic theory concepts like "key." Each chord is like its own little tonal world, and the artistry of writing and soloing over jazz changes is making interesting relationships between those tonal worlds, linking but also contrasting them. Oftentimes for simple charts the changes will stay in the same key so you don't really have to worry about what I just said, but for more complex pieces, if you look at jazz purely in terms of formal chord analysis for one rigid key, you're going to have to deal with all sorts of borrowed chords and exceptions to rules in order to keep relating them to that key, and if the piece gives you enough twists and turns you'll just get lost and confused. I did this for years and got a headache thinking that you had to brute-force it, but if you just focus on each chord symbol as a symbol for what notes you can throw into the chord as well as in your melody (e.g. Am7b5 tells you that at least you can put an A, C, Eb and G in there, and you could also infer that it's probably the vii chord for the key of Bb so you could play A locrian or basically Bb major rotated to A and thinking about where you're going to set up a melody into the next chord). The chords are not elements that you have to cram into a theoretical box, but rather they are guideposts that help you follow along; the composer already thought through the changes to make them flow together.

[–]Nasdijj 0 points1 point ago

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This is the advice I wish I had when starting out.

[–]grandoiseau 0 points1 point ago

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Dude, totally know what you're saying. Listen to this piece, and notice how they end the song's theme on the major 6 like you just mentioned at the 0:23 mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy59LMpMmbI

[–]birdlives 2 points3 points ago

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Dorian, Mixolidean, melodic minor, bebop, and such are popular. None of them will give you a "jazzy" feel to it though. They are just frameworks in which common changes fall into. Some swear by playing chord tones, others work by embellishing the melody. Myself I was not able to get a jazz sound by following rigidly to theory. You just listen to jazz and the sound becomes a part of you. You may think that there are thousands of rules in which a jazz player is following to get that sound, but really they're just playing what sounds cool to them.

[–]grandoiseau 1 point2 points ago

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I never liked the concept of "bebop scale". It's the wrong way to look at it. I could see how the concept can be used to help beginners get into the jazz frame of mind, but to my knowledge nobody serious about jazz uses this concept.

[–]HR78 3 points4 points ago

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Charlie Christian, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker, to name a few, were pretty serious about jazz and hey used the bebop scale heavily. The purpose behind the scale is to add another passing tone to the scale so it will have 8 notes instead of 7, having an even amount of notes allows strong notes to fall on strong beats. I'm not a jazz master by any means, so I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just disagreeing based on what I know. Why is it the wrong way to look at it?

[–]grandoiseau 0 points1 point ago*

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Pros like Bird and Dizzy were playing at such a high level that they didn't really have time to think "I'm gonna play this 8-note scale over this so it'll sound better than the regular 7-note scale", they instead just "felt" the music. Now this is what many people still learning jazz have a difficulty understanding: all these bebop scales, passing tones, chord inversions...etc are just terminology that is used to help you "get into jazz" as a beginner. But as you progress, you start to "feel" it. I have gone to way too many small jazz gigs and discussed with people who are good at jazz, and they tell me the same thing: That when they were playing this melody over this chord progression, they weren't really thinking about "emphasizing the root, or the fifth, or playing this arpeggio or that arpeggio..etc" They just closed their eyes and let their imagination take over.

Now of course, to get to that level, you have to practice a lot, and use all these simplified concepts (like the bebop scale) to get to know your instrument better, so that one day you'll finally GET IT.

NB: I've listened to almost every recording available by Bird, and he always plays whatever he feels like, and yet somehow tie it elegantly to the chord progression. He is revered in jazz because he is that good.

[–]HR78 0 points1 point ago

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I see your point, but if Dizzy is playing from a Bebop scale he is playing a Bebop scale, to me it seems irrelevant whether he was doing it consciously or subconsciously. Learning the scale is just a faster way to get to the same point in my opinion.
When I was learning and playing minor pentatonic licks in rock I'd find myself adding notes in here and there because they sounded good, I had no idea why but they just did. Then years later I learned the modes and discovered why and when they fit, which was a big boost to my playing because it showed me other notes and patterns that I could play as well. Sure, I probably would have stumbled across them on my own eventually with hundreds of hours of playing, but it was like someone turned a light switch on in my head. It also helps for communication purposes, when you're beginning and playing with more experienced musicians it's much easier for them to tell you to try playing a Bebop Dominant run over something than it is for them to sit back and wait for years for you to feel your way into it.

[–]samjowett 0 points1 point ago

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Indeed.

"Bebop scales" are just major, melodic minor, dorian and dominant -- with passing tones thrown in the mix. I don't see the use in differentiating a "bebop" scale from it's parent. Although it's important to become attuned to the chromatic sound and altered pulse that the added note(s) lend, I don't think it's important or useful to look at these mechanisms as part of a separate and distinct series of notes.

Keeping one's mind on the parent scale, and being mindful that you can step outside of it, is a more readily available concept, IMO.

[–]discord 2 points3 points ago

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All of them.

[–]byanymeans 2 points3 points ago

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I played jazz trombone and some jazz guitar i'd stick to penatonic and swing just throw in a few color notes being used in the chord changes

but thats my style some guys do more runs but my phrasing is is based off my trombone experience so i tend to do less of that

[–]grandoiseau 0 points1 point ago

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Like others said already, jazz is much more complex than just playing scales. Jazz is about singing a melody with your instrument to go over the chord changes. Sure you could play a scale, but that would be uni-dimensional.

[–]HR78 0 points1 point ago*

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Nobody just plays a scale, you select notes from it. I'm sure we all agree that playing the scale from start to finish would be lame, but the Bebop scale gets you used to the concept of playing strong notes on strong beats and allows you to build longer runs out of the scale. It's the same thing as the Pentatonic minor VS the Blues Box with the added blue note, you don't play it every time but you throw it in there sparingly once you're aware of it. It's a key part of the sound in blues and while it may be easy for a more experienced musician to discredit these variations, for a beginner they're good stepping stones to get to where you want to be. Sure the pros have progressed past the basics but they never forget them, they just elaborate on them.

[–]ApplesnPie -1 points0 points ago

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I just play shit

[–]samjowett 1 point2 points ago

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I pictured you as Christopher Walken.